Hutton's coal-fired 'kite' shot down in flames

Posted by jossc - 10 March 2008 at 6:06pm - Comments

Coal: the most polluring of all energy sources

John Hutton, the man responsible for Britain's energy policy, gave his explicit support this morning for a new generation of coal-fired power stations.

Choosing the stormiest day of the year so far to deliver a speech to members of the right-wing think-tank the Adam Smith Institute, the Secretary of State for Business flew a dangerous kite when he insisted that coal has a "key role" to play in energy provision, and accused anyone who disagreed with him (that's us, folks, along with Prince Charles, Al Gore, the head of NASA, opposition parties and thousands of others) of playing "gesture politics".

didcot
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Astonishingly, he claimed that "For critics, there's a belief that coal-fired power stations undermine the UK's leadership position on climate change. In fact the opposite is true." Given that burning coal is the single biggest contributor to the man-made CO2 emissions that are rapidly changing our climate, this is a simply bizarre position to take. Hutton tried to justify his position by asserting that new coal plants would be "clean" because carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology would soon be on hand to remove CO2 from the generating process before it is released into the atmosphere. But CCS isn't close to being commercially viable yet, and may well not be for another decade, if at all. So any new coal plants built in the UK are likely to be pumping out vast quantities of CO2 for years to come, completely undermining the government's stated policy of reducing CO2 emissions by 80 per cent by 2050.

With the government currently considering whether to grant a license for Kingsnorth in Kent, which will be the first new coal-fired plant in Britain for 30 years (with at least seven more planned to follow), Hutton's speech was obviously intended as a declaration of support for a new coal era, and to characterise him as a man prepared to "show leadership" and take difficult decisions. But there's a world of difference between taking difficult decisions and completely nonsensical ones. Hutton cites "tackling climate change and securing our future energy supplies" as his biggest priorities - coal does neither (since around two-thirds of the coal we use is imported). The truth is that coal is back on his agenda for one reason only - it's currently the cheapest energy source on the market.

If Gordon Brown was wondering what sort of reaction Hutton's kite-flying speech would provoke, he didn't have to wait long. Within minutes of its end the Press Association's wires were humming with critical comments, shooting it out of the sky. Here are a few to give you a flavour, starting with a withering critique by leading climate scientist Dr James Hansen:

"If the British Government indeed approves new coal-fired power plants before carbon-capture technology is ready, and if it believes that this egregious action is in any way compensated by restrictions on gas-guzzling vehicles, it is demonstrating a grievous lack of understanding of the gravity and urgency of dealing with climate change.

"If the Government cannot understand the elementary logic and urgency of the climate problem, which was laid out in a letter that I sent to the Prime Minister, it may be time for the public to find more astute leadership."
Dr James Hansen, director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies

"At a time when the Government should be working to reduce the UK's emissions, ministers seem determined to allow a huge new polluting power station. What planet is John Hutton living on? Without carbon capture and storage, clean coal is a total myth. This monstrosity will only emit 20 per cent less than previous coal-fired stations and a massive 75 per cent more than a gas-powered plant.
Nick Clegg, Liberal-Democrat Leader

"There must be a public inquiry [on Kingsnorth], first of all because of the gravity of what's being proposed and secondly because of what we now know of what has happened between the department and the application. There's obviously been very, very close co-operation between the company and the department."
Bob Marshall-Andrews, Labour MP for Medway (where Kingsnorth is located)

"The problem is that [Hutton] cannot reconcile his emissions targets with allowing new-coal fired stations. At the moment they are more efficient than before but in terms of carbon they are dirty and not clean. Carbon capture and storage on a commercial scale is a good few years away and so in the short term there remains an insoluble conflict between building a coal-fired station and reducing emissions to meet our targets."
Alan Duncan, Shadow Secretary for Business

"Gordon Brown says he is committed to helping the developing world. This flies in the face of such sentiments. Climate change caused by greenhouse gases is already having a devastating impact on the poor living in parts of the world subject to extreme weather conditions. Those with the least responsibility for causing the problem are bearing its brunt."
Andrew Pendleton, Senior Climate Change Policy Analyst, Christian Aid

"The reason UK emissions have risen for the past 10 years is because we have increased our reliance on coal-fired generation. The Government cannot expect to meet its legally binding targets, soon to be imposed through the climate change bill, if it sanctions the development of a new fleet of unabated coal fired power stations."
Russell Marsh, Head of Policy, Green Alliance

 

The list goes on, and it can hardly be music to Gordon's ears. One thing is for sure, a government that is pro-coal, pro-airport expansion and anti-road pricing is NOT one which can be said to be remotely serious about tackling climate change. Their rhetoric has run into the buffers, their fine sentiments exposed as a sham, and the logic of their position is untenable. The Prime Minister needs to pull in his Secretary of State for business and give him an elementary lesson on what constitutes leadership on climate change, beginning with an instruction to reject Kingsnorth. Anything less will leave his aspirations to leadership on this issue in tatters.

..."authorities have ordered coal production to be increased"...
..."millions reported to be without water and electricity"...

"On Wednesday [30/Jan/2008], President Hu Jintao visited a coal mine in Shanxi province. "Disaster-hit areas need coal and the power plants need coal," he told miners, according to Xinhua news agency. "I pay an early New Year call here to those miners who will not go back home to celebrate the Spring Festival for [the sake of] the coal production," he said"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7221456.stm

Hutton's finally got it. Good lad.
China is going to burn coal rather than watch its citizens freeze to death. If it doesn't, there will be a regieme change (see maslow's hierachy of needs), and the new administration will burn coal to keep its citizens warm, rather than go the same way as the old one.

We can:
1) Tell them to use distributed low carbon technology instead (which would be great - really I would like to see it). The trouble is that China's civilisation is (a lot) older than ours and, much like (for example) the UK being told what to do by, say, Bangladesh, they have no reason to accept what we order them to do EVEN IF IT IS RIGHT.
Order is a strong word (and not really the right one), but I hope you understand my point.
2) Pilot RELEVANT technology in the UK (taking a financial penalty), before GIVING it to them to help them reduce their CO2 emissions which are going to be around for the next 40 or so years (about the life of the plant they are building today).

At the end of the day how much CO2 will kingsnorth produce over it's lifetime? A 20 - 30 million tonnes? - and that's without CCS, with the first UK CCS deomonstartion plant being built by 2010 - (http://www.ndtcabin.com/articles/power/0710002.php).
Ballance the risk of several million tonnes of CO2 in the atmosphere, against the posability of stopping dangerous climate change.

Please - have an open mind for a moment or two, and please see it from my point of view.

Which is the best way of reducing China's CO2 emissions? I'm sure you're aware we need not bother taking action if they do not.

All the best;

Mark Flower
Postgraduate
Energy Technology for Sustainable Devolopment Group
Imperial College London

(All views are my own)

Hi Mark,

obviously things will not go well if China, India, Brazil etc continue to expand economically using fossil fuels. But they face the same dire consequences as we do if run away climate change becomes a reality, and so have the same incentives to prevent this. What they are unlikely to do is to initiate change before we in the west do - let's face it, it's our profligate lifestyle over the past century which has led us to where we are (the carbon footprint of the average chinese is still a fraction of the average briton, let alone american) and we have to take the lead in finding ways out of the mess.

The solutions to the crisis are at hand (renewable energy, decentralised energy and energy conservation) - it's up to us to implement them, first in our own society, and then export them to India, China though international agreement. This will happen at some point in the future (through necessity as the climate continues to worsen and the penny finally drops that we face extinction if we don't). Nobody would suggest that this is going to be easy (according to James Lovelock 80% of humanity will be wiped out by 2100 no matter what we do) but the alternative is to do nothing - which isn't really an option for anyone who wants a future for their family.

The best we can do is to get our own house in order, which will then give us the moral authority to get others to change.
After all, if we who are most responsible can't be bothered to change, why should anyone else?

John Hutton’s speech tries making a case for new coal fired power stations in England. While we are struggling to stop irreversible damage to the environment as a result of climate change; the government is keen on building the UK's first coal-fired plant for 30 years at Kingsnorth. Using the rhetoric of ‘market friendly economics’ and ‘free market policies’, Hutton is trying to sell the advantages that coal has over renewables like wind, sun and tidal energy.

Hutton advocates emissions trading for us to incentivise climate-friendly energy polices and low-carbon technologies. However, 7 new coal plants proposed for the UK that will continue to belch out unlimited carbon clearly shows that the energy trading scheme is inefficient. Also, it would be hard to get rid of the coal plants once they are built and would eat into investments needed for renewable energy technologies.

Hutton says that increased investment in coal and nuclear will make the UK economy more self reliant and less dependant on other countries for its energy. Unfortunately, nuclear and coal power stand like two bouncers at the door blocking the way for renewables which would produce better return on investment without any toxic residue.

Hutton defends the continual use of fossil fuels for the next couple of decades as nothing wrong. Faced with impending crisis of climate change and its irreversibility, it is difficult to understand how one can advocate fossil fuels in light of scientific research. Also, the UK cannot meet its international obligations to reduce carbon emissions by building 7 coal fired plants!

The argument surrounding the use of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) technology to justify coal plants is weak as CCS is still in its infancy and is not viable at this point in time. We don’t even know if it would be able for commercial use let alone know when. Predicting that CCS will somehow counteract the negative effects of coal plants is pure greenwash and needs to be exposed as such.

Finally, those on low incomes will experience greater savings if their electricity is generated from renewable sources of energy than fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are expensive and dirty and cannot resolve our problems of fuel poverty. With a combination of wind, tidal and solar power we can meet all our energy demands as well as meet our emissions targets for the future.

Jossc
Thanks for you reply - actually very informative. It's good to see that we agree on so many things.
If I understand correctly I have to say that I think we disagree on the way things could turn out?
I'm sorry to say that I don't believe that China will turn off their coal fired power stations. It's good to see that they have projections to install 8GW of wind by 2015, but I believe that they will have such a demand for electricity that they will not be able to turn off coal (estimated deposits of 114 billion tonnes) http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/
globalbp_uk_english/reports_and_publications/statistical
_energy_review_2007/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/
pdf/table_of_proved_coal_reserves_2007.pdf
.

Saunvedan, respectfully, CCS is probably closer, and more efficient than you think. I don't wish to post angry remarks, however you should probably read this presentation: http://www.coalresearchforum.org/20070620_kelsall.pdf , slide 9 and slide 20 are my favorites - particularly CCS with biomass!
The coal research forum is a research forum based within universities within the country. Alstom power are a boiler manufacturer, and by the looks of things are looking to get into the CCS game.
The cost of electricity is of course highly sensitive to the price of carbon and intermitancy. I don't know enough about the subject to comment.

Regards,

Mark

(Edited to correct Chinese coal reserves)

Sorry, Joss, where did "the government's stated policy of reducing CO2 emissions by 80 per cent by 2050" come from?

In Gordon Brown's November 2007 speech he said the govt. would ask the new Committee on Climate Change to advise whether the UK target should be 80%. This is not the same as having that target adopted as official policy. We shouldn't be leading people to think the UK has an 80% policy when 60% is not even enshrined in law yet..

Hi jakobovitch - yes you're absolutely right, it should have read 60% - got a bit ahead of myself there. The point remains valid, though - a new generation of coal fired-plants without CSS capability would undermine any realistic chance of achieving a 60% level of reduction.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Obviously the rapid growth of China and its expanding use of fossil-fuel power is a source for concern, but there are some positives in there as well - see the new BBC green site for a good rationale, plus an important discussion of how much of China's CO2 output is related to manufacturing products for consumption, not by its own people, but by us in the west.

Regarding CCS - what's your estimation of when this technology will be ready? As you can see from the email exchange we uncovered between BERR and E.ON, the government made a feeble attempt to force the company to include CCS plans in their proposals, but they rejected this out of hand on the grounds that it “has no current reference for viability at any scale” (their words). So Kingsnorth 2 and the rest of the new coal plants (at least seven in the pipeline) are likely to see many years of service before CCS comes on stream. Given what we know about the CO2 situation and our commitment to dramatically reduce our output, it's hard to see how a decision to go with new coal can be defended as responsible position to adopt, which is what John Hutton is trying to do.

Jossc

Sorry for the delay in replying - while I work in the CCS group here at Imperial my PhD is on biomass co-combustion, rather than CCS, so I had to ask the rest of my group for a solid response!

I'm afraid this is a long response.

Eon is correct today when they say that CCS (from power stations) has no current reference at any scale, but that is changing very rapidly.
The problem Eon has got is they need to design the plant (for planned completion in 2012? - although add a year for the public enquiry I guess) now.
As we are both aware CCS won't be regarded as ready until it has been demonstrated at commercial scale. Beyond Sleipner I don't believe that this has happened.

So, dates.

I'm told that if the political will is there (and this is where you can help, right?) the full-scale retrofit of new plants could be started by about 2016, 3-4-5 years after kingsnorth is commissioned.

I need to stress that this includes two tranches of CCS test facility being built prior to this national / european roll out (currently planned for 2020 http://www.zero-emissionplatform.eu/website/) to learn from, and improve (the economics if nothing else), the facility.
There is no reason these could not be attached to kingsnorth.

This first tranche (learning complete 2012) would be a demonstration plant, maybe as small as 0.1GW.
The second tranche (learning complete 2016) should be of larger scale (0.3 - 0.5GW), such as the one anounced in the governments competition (0.4GW???). Para 6.51 of the budget talks about having an oporational (i.e. built) CCS power plant by 2014, 1-2 years after kingsnorth.
National (and european) roll out comes from there (2016, at the latest 2020).
Global rollout could then happen (after another learning cycle) from 2020 - 2025, well on target for 2050 (or even 2030 I read somewhere - tindall centre?)...

I'm told that a lot could be gained by pulling forwards the decision of the governments competition from the end of 2009 (since this plant is needed to learn from). Shave a year of there, shave a year off roll out (2014 has been mentioned, although with scepticism, which is why I didn't use it, for roll out).

I hope that helps.

Mark, interesting though Imperials work on potential new technologies like Carbon Capture and Storage is, the stark reality is that the proposed new plant at Kingsnorth is not a CCS plant and does not include any real provisions for such technology.

This is a classic debate between research scientists (like yourself) and practical engineering. Until someone builds a CCS plant, us engineers are going to stick to building old fashioned carbon intensive coal plants. We’ve been doing so for the last century, and don’t really like to change, especially if we can still make money doing it the old and dirty way.

We could of course use proven new technologies like wind, but when government is willing to hijack the planning system to push through new coal and is happy to let wind applications sink into the planning mire, why bother?

Perhaps if government insisted Eon pay for and build that CCS demonstration plant at Kingsnorth as a pre-condition of planning consent, then CCS technology might make it out of the lab after all.

Richard (ex Imperial)
Meng, ACGI (etc etc)

Richard

Great to see another Imperial person about (particularly one who resisted the city :-) ).

You've got some great points there, and of course you are right - one thing is certain, and that is the shareholders are not going to be voluntarily out of pocket.
How you ensure this is indeed important. While insisting on a CCS plant is an option I guess I would prefer to see market incentives to put them in place - effectivly an equivelant ROC scheme for CCS (well, co-firing is there, so why not CCS?).
This would of course be in addition to the price of carbon, which already supports wind, wave, biomass (etc.).

I appreciate that most (if not everyone else here) would have a different view!

I think that perhaps you are also being a little unfair to kingsnorth when you describe it as not including any provision for the technology.
Eon have produced (but I now can't find...) plans for a full sized amine capture plant. I believe they were going to move the coal stock yard onto the site of the old powerstation, and build the amine capture plant on top of the old site.
If I recall correctly they couldn't build it straight away as the site was short of space (and to be honest I also think that the design has yet to be finalised) that would be freed up once the old power station was gone.

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting now (it's been great fun!) as I don't want to go around in circles.

All the best!

Mark

..."authorities have ordered coal production to be increased"... ..."millions reported to be without water and electricity"... "On Wednesday [30/Jan/2008], President Hu Jintao visited a coal mine in Shanxi province. "Disaster-hit areas need coal and the power plants need coal," he told miners, according to Xinhua news agency. "I pay an early New Year call here to those miners who will not go back home to celebrate the Spring Festival for [the sake of] the coal production," he said" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7221456.stm Hutton's finally got it. Good lad. China is going to burn coal rather than watch its citizens freeze to death. If it doesn't, there will be a regieme change (see maslow's hierachy of needs), and the new administration will burn coal to keep its citizens warm, rather than go the same way as the old one. We can: 1) Tell them to use distributed low carbon technology instead (which would be great - really I would like to see it). The trouble is that China's civilisation is (a lot) older than ours and, much like (for example) the UK being told what to do by, say, Bangladesh, they have no reason to accept what we order them to do EVEN IF IT IS RIGHT. Order is a strong word (and not really the right one), but I hope you understand my point. 2) Pilot RELEVANT technology in the UK (taking a financial penalty), before GIVING it to them to help them reduce their CO2 emissions which are going to be around for the next 40 or so years (about the life of the plant they are building today). At the end of the day how much CO2 will kingsnorth produce over it's lifetime? A 20 - 30 million tonnes? - and that's without CCS, with the first UK CCS deomonstartion plant being built by 2010 - (http://www.ndtcabin.com/articles/power/0710002.php). Ballance the risk of several million tonnes of CO2 in the atmosphere, against the posability of stopping dangerous climate change. Please - have an open mind for a moment or two, and please see it from my point of view. Which is the best way of reducing China's CO2 emissions? I'm sure you're aware we need not bother taking action if they do not. All the best; Mark Flower Postgraduate Energy Technology for Sustainable Devolopment Group Imperial College London (All views are my own)

Hi Mark, obviously things will not go well if China, India, Brazil etc continue to expand economically using fossil fuels. But they face the same dire consequences as we do if run away climate change becomes a reality, and so have the same incentives to prevent this. What they are unlikely to do is to initiate change before we in the west do - let's face it, it's our profligate lifestyle over the past century which has led us to where we are (the carbon footprint of the average chinese is still a fraction of the average briton, let alone american) and we have to take the lead in finding ways out of the mess. The solutions to the crisis are at hand (renewable energy, decentralised energy and energy conservation) - it's up to us to implement them, first in our own society, and then export them to India, China though international agreement. This will happen at some point in the future (through necessity as the climate continues to worsen and the penny finally drops that we face extinction if we don't). Nobody would suggest that this is going to be easy (according to James Lovelock 80% of humanity will be wiped out by 2100 no matter what we do) but the alternative is to do nothing - which isn't really an option for anyone who wants a future for their family. The best we can do is to get our own house in order, which will then give us the moral authority to get others to change. After all, if we who are most responsible can't be bothered to change, why should anyone else?

John Hutton’s speech tries making a case for new coal fired power stations in England. While we are struggling to stop irreversible damage to the environment as a result of climate change; the government is keen on building the UK's first coal-fired plant for 30 years at Kingsnorth. Using the rhetoric of ‘market friendly economics’ and ‘free market policies’, Hutton is trying to sell the advantages that coal has over renewables like wind, sun and tidal energy. Hutton advocates emissions trading for us to incentivise climate-friendly energy polices and low-carbon technologies. However, 7 new coal plants proposed for the UK that will continue to belch out unlimited carbon clearly shows that the energy trading scheme is inefficient. Also, it would be hard to get rid of the coal plants once they are built and would eat into investments needed for renewable energy technologies. Hutton says that increased investment in coal and nuclear will make the UK economy more self reliant and less dependant on other countries for its energy. Unfortunately, nuclear and coal power stand like two bouncers at the door blocking the way for renewables which would produce better return on investment without any toxic residue. Hutton defends the continual use of fossil fuels for the next couple of decades as nothing wrong. Faced with impending crisis of climate change and its irreversibility, it is difficult to understand how one can advocate fossil fuels in light of scientific research. Also, the UK cannot meet its international obligations to reduce carbon emissions by building 7 coal fired plants! The argument surrounding the use of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) technology to justify coal plants is weak as CCS is still in its infancy and is not viable at this point in time. We don’t even know if it would be able for commercial use let alone know when. Predicting that CCS will somehow counteract the negative effects of coal plants is pure greenwash and needs to be exposed as such. Finally, those on low incomes will experience greater savings if their electricity is generated from renewable sources of energy than fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are expensive and dirty and cannot resolve our problems of fuel poverty. With a combination of wind, tidal and solar power we can meet all our energy demands as well as meet our emissions targets for the future.

Jossc Thanks for you reply - actually very informative. It's good to see that we agree on so many things. If I understand correctly I have to say that I think we disagree on the way things could turn out? I'm sorry to say that I don't believe that China will turn off their coal fired power stations. It's good to see that they have projections to install 8GW of wind by 2015, but I believe that they will have such a demand for electricity that they will not be able to turn off coal (estimated deposits of 114 billion tonnes) http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/ globalbp_uk_english/reports_and_publications/statistical _energy_review_2007/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/ pdf/table_of_proved_coal_reserves_2007.pdf. Saunvedan, respectfully, CCS is probably closer, and more efficient than you think. I don't wish to post angry remarks, however you should probably read this presentation: http://www.coalresearchforum.org/20070620_kelsall.pdf , slide 9 and slide 20 are my favorites - particularly CCS with biomass! The coal research forum is a research forum based within universities within the country. Alstom power are a boiler manufacturer, and by the looks of things are looking to get into the CCS game. The cost of electricity is of course highly sensitive to the price of carbon and intermitancy. I don't know enough about the subject to comment. Regards, Mark (Edited to correct Chinese coal reserves)

Sorry, Joss, where did "the government's stated policy of reducing CO2 emissions by 80 per cent by 2050" come from? In Gordon Brown's November 2007 speech he said the govt. would ask the new Committee on Climate Change to advise whether the UK target should be 80%. This is not the same as having that target adopted as official policy. We shouldn't be leading people to think the UK has an 80% policy when 60% is not even enshrined in law yet..

Hi jakobovitch - yes you're absolutely right, it should have read 60% - got a bit ahead of myself there. The point remains valid, though - a new generation of coal fired-plants without CSS capability would undermine any realistic chance of achieving a 60% level of reduction.

Hi Mark, Thanks for your comments. Obviously the rapid growth of China and its expanding use of fossil-fuel power is a source for concern, but there are some positives in there as well - see the new BBC green site for a good rationale, plus an important discussion of how much of China's CO2 output is related to manufacturing products for consumption, not by its own people, but by us in the west. Regarding CCS - what's your estimation of when this technology will be ready? As you can see from the email exchange we uncovered between BERR and E.ON, the government made a feeble attempt to force the company to include CCS plans in their proposals, but they rejected this out of hand on the grounds that it “has no current reference for viability at any scale” (their words). So Kingsnorth 2 and the rest of the new coal plants (at least seven in the pipeline) are likely to see many years of service before CCS comes on stream. Given what we know about the CO2 situation and our commitment to dramatically reduce our output, it's hard to see how a decision to go with new coal can be defended as responsible position to adopt, which is what John Hutton is trying to do.

Jossc Sorry for the delay in replying - while I work in the CCS group here at Imperial my PhD is on biomass co-combustion, rather than CCS, so I had to ask the rest of my group for a solid response! I'm afraid this is a long response. Eon is correct today when they say that CCS (from power stations) has no current reference at any scale, but that is changing very rapidly. The problem Eon has got is they need to design the plant (for planned completion in 2012? - although add a year for the public enquiry I guess) now. As we are both aware CCS won't be regarded as ready until it has been demonstrated at commercial scale. Beyond Sleipner I don't believe that this has happened. So, dates. I'm told that if the political will is there (and this is where you can help, right?) the full-scale retrofit of new plants could be started by about 2016, 3-4-5 years after kingsnorth is commissioned. I need to stress that this includes two tranches of CCS test facility being built prior to this national / european roll out (currently planned for 2020 http://www.zero-emissionplatform.eu/website/) to learn from, and improve (the economics if nothing else), the facility. There is no reason these could not be attached to kingsnorth. This first tranche (learning complete 2012) would be a demonstration plant, maybe as small as 0.1GW. The second tranche (learning complete 2016) should be of larger scale (0.3 - 0.5GW), such as the one anounced in the governments competition (0.4GW???). Para 6.51 of the budget talks about having an oporational (i.e. built) CCS power plant by 2014, 1-2 years after kingsnorth. National (and european) roll out comes from there (2016, at the latest 2020). Global rollout could then happen (after another learning cycle) from 2020 - 2025, well on target for 2050 (or even 2030 I read somewhere - tindall centre?)... I'm told that a lot could be gained by pulling forwards the decision of the governments competition from the end of 2009 (since this plant is needed to learn from). Shave a year of there, shave a year off roll out (2014 has been mentioned, although with scepticism, which is why I didn't use it, for roll out). I hope that helps.

Mark, interesting though Imperials work on potential new technologies like Carbon Capture and Storage is, the stark reality is that the proposed new plant at Kingsnorth is not a CCS plant and does not include any real provisions for such technology. This is a classic debate between research scientists (like yourself) and practical engineering. Until someone builds a CCS plant, us engineers are going to stick to building old fashioned carbon intensive coal plants. We’ve been doing so for the last century, and don’t really like to change, especially if we can still make money doing it the old and dirty way. We could of course use proven new technologies like wind, but when government is willing to hijack the planning system to push through new coal and is happy to let wind applications sink into the planning mire, why bother? Perhaps if government insisted Eon pay for and build that CCS demonstration plant at Kingsnorth as a pre-condition of planning consent, then CCS technology might make it out of the lab after all. Richard (ex Imperial) Meng, ACGI (etc etc)

Richard Great to see another Imperial person about (particularly one who resisted the city :-) ). You've got some great points there, and of course you are right - one thing is certain, and that is the shareholders are not going to be voluntarily out of pocket. How you ensure this is indeed important. While insisting on a CCS plant is an option I guess I would prefer to see market incentives to put them in place - effectivly an equivelant ROC scheme for CCS (well, co-firing is there, so why not CCS?). This would of course be in addition to the price of carbon, which already supports wind, wave, biomass (etc.). I appreciate that most (if not everyone else here) would have a different view! I think that perhaps you are also being a little unfair to kingsnorth when you describe it as not including any provision for the technology. Eon have produced (but I now can't find...) plans for a full sized amine capture plant. I believe they were going to move the coal stock yard onto the site of the old powerstation, and build the amine capture plant on top of the old site. If I recall correctly they couldn't build it straight away as the site was short of space (and to be honest I also think that the design has yet to be finalised) that would be freed up once the old power station was gone. Anyway, I'm going to stop posting now (it's been great fun!) as I don't want to go around in circles. All the best! Mark

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